During a dual Zoom interview with Guitar World, Billy Corgan remembers he has a bit of pressing musical business to go over with Kiki Wong. “Kiki,” I’m breaking down all these parts, so I’ve got to call you about some guitar stuff,” he says.
“Awesome. Sounds good,” Wong responds cheerfully.
No doubt this has been a constant in her life since the day everything changed for her back in April 2024, when the Phoenix-based guitarist and social media shredder was chosen over 9,999 other hopefuls to join the Smashing Pumpkins following the departure of longtime guitarist Jeff Schroeder.
Given just three months to get up to speed (during which time she had to learn some 35 songs that might comprise a Pumpkins setlist on any given night), Wong was thrown in the deep end and made her debut with the band in front of 15,000 British fans at the Birmingham Arena (her second show – at London’s O2 Arena – raised the stakes even higher).
“The second show at the O2 was insane,” Wong says. “But I do remember feeling, when we did get up on stage, that it felt a lot better than in rehearsal. It was so much fun to be a part of it all.”
During rehearsals, Corgan had a strong sense that Wong could handle the gig, but he also recognized that the concert stage would be the true litmus test.
“Some people get the deer-in-headlights thing, particularly when you're up there and suddenly you have to remember 4,000 weird guitar parts,” he says.
“Plus, the band’s loud and we’re playing faster, we’re playing lots of big places… That’s the problem with being in an old band. We can kind of phone it in at rehearsal or just be like, ‘Does everybody know what they're doing?’ No-one’s playing with the level of intensity we’re playing at live. I think Kiki probably experienced that on stage, like, ‘Oh… There’s that other thing that happens with them.’”
That “other thing” – the hurricane-like force of the band in full flight, along with the thunderous roar of the crowd – could break even the most capable and experienced of players. Happily, none of that came to pass.
During those first high-level shows, Corgan recalls glancing at Wong and thinking, “All right, she’s fine. I don't need to pay one ounce of attention to whether or not she’s drowning over there. She’s going to be fine.’”
What’s more, he noticed right away that Wong had a profound – and unexpectedly infectious – impact on the rest of the band (which also includes guitarist James Iha and drummer Jimmy Chamberlin, along with touring bassist Jack Bates and keyboardist Katie Cole).
“Kiki held down her corner of the stage, and something about her personality kind of brought Jack forward,” Corgan says. “Suddenly the band was playing with a lot more aggression and fire.”
Given that the Smashing Pumpkins have had more than a few musicians drift in and out of their ranks over the years (between actual members and touring players, it’s something like 30 different people), Corgan’s assessment of Wong’s influence is not insignificant. Could this be something of a new chapter for the veteran group?
Corgan mulls over the question, then says, “I think when you’re in a situation where you need to bring in an additional musician, there’s a trepidation in the unit because you're wondering how that person’s personality will tip the balance positively or negatively.
“Secondarily, of course, there's how it will work in terms of musicianship. Kiki's such a wonderful person to be around – she’s already made the band better because everybody is in a better mood.”
Wong blushes and smiles as Corgan continues: “Sometimes that’s all it takes. Someone’s enthusiasm and positivity and just good-heartedness can make grumpy musicians realize that the opportunities they have are still important, and not to be looked past or easily waved off if they become inconvenient to obviously a much longer story that doesn’t always involve one gig or one tour.
“We’re very grateful to Kiki, because she’s brought a lot of good vibes and good times, and all those things aside, she’s a great, professional musician.”
At the time of our conversation, Corgan is prepping for a solo tour billed as “Billy Corgan and the Machines of God” for which he’s formed a side band consisting of Wong, drummer Jake Hayden and bassist Kid Tigrr. Soon after, it’s right back to Pumpkins world – the band will tour Europe, then Asia and the Middle East.
“When I do any kind of solo stuff, I know the first thing people assume is there's some issue with the band,” Corgan says. “Everything’s fine. In fact, the band's playing more shows this year than I’m playing solo.”
As for Wong, who will perform new songs and deep cuts on the solo tour before heading back to the Pumpkins, it’s a seemingly never-ending cavalcade of fresh material to digest.
“It’s a lot of work, but I love the work,” she says. “It’s been really challenging; I’ve been so used to my own style, and it’s easy to get very confident, maybe too confident. Suddenly I’m learning a different style, and I’m almost becoming a different musician, so it’s super-fulfilling. I’m deep into this whole new world of music I can tap into and grow from.”
Kiki, from what I understand, at the time that the Pumpkins were holding the open auditions, you were kind of in a down place musically; things weren't quite working out for you. What made you think you had a chance to be considered for the Pumpkins?
I remember right before the audition I still didn’t think I was going to get it, but I didn’t care because I knew I was going to play with legends
Kiki Wong
Kiki Wong: “Oh, man, it's so funny. My baby was six or seven months old, so it was these super-hardcore months of babyhood.”
Of course, when your baby is that young, you naturally think about trying to join a big band. Everybody knows that.
Wong: [Laughs] “Yeah, right? But you know, my brain is wired in a way that makes me on the verge of being a pessimist – slightly pessimistic but closer to a realist. But there’s always been this thing in my head, like, ‘When am I going to quit the dream and be just a person? How long can I keep hammering at this thing and constantly being let down?’
“Now I had an actual reason to think that way, which was to take care of my kid. I remember pushing the baby around in a stroller – he couldn’t sleep – and while pushing him around in the Arizona desert heat, I kept saying to my boyfriend, ‘What if I become a Pumpkin?’ He said, ‘You’ve got this. You’re going to get it.’ This was before we even heard anything back from anyone. I had just thrown the resume in there, and I was like, ‘There's no way. There’s probably 4,000 people already.’”
You were off by 6,000.
Wong: [Laughs] “But then everything unfolded in such an unbelievable way. Every step of the Zoom call with the band and being invited to L.A. – I remember right before the audition I still didn’t think I was going to get it, but I didn’t care because I knew I was going to play with legends.
“Even if I didn’t get anything, I’ve gained that experience. I remember going into the actual audition and playing, and I forgot what I was doing because I was just looking at the band, thinking, ‘This is fucking awesome!’ I was having so much fun.”
Billy, I have a key question: out of the 10,000 applicants, how many videos did you actually watch till you got to Kiki? And when you got to her, were you like, “Maybe we should stop here?”
Corgan: “I had to give some sort of filter to it because the response was so overwhelming, and that filter was, ‘Send me anybody with a professional resume.’ If they’ve done anything – play a casino show in Vegas, tour with any band that’s got a recording history, anybody who would remotely qualify – send them to me. I would say there were easily, gosh, 500 or 600 of those.
“I had to go through all of those responses and whittle them down. The thing I remember very distinctly, obviously given the result, was when I saw Kiki’s name, I kind of stopped and thought, ‘Wait… I think I follow her on Instagram.’ I went to Instagram to confirm this, and I was like, ‘Oh, that’s that person I really like.’”
You had already seen her playing somewhat.
Corgan: “Right. So I had this sense of, ‘Well, I know her and I like her.’ At least I had a positive mental impression. I set her name aside specifically because I knew who she was. It would be like if you called me and said, ‘Hey, at least give my friend Bobby a look because I’ve known him for 20 years and he's somebody you can count on.’ It's like a personal recommendation.
A lot of people played well, but once we talked to them I thought, ‘They’re not really going to fit into our world.’ We’re a bit of a weird lot
Billy Corgan
“It helped that I had a positive impression of what she was doing on Instagram. There were a lot of other people who had very impressive resumes. I would go to their Instagrams and look at the way they stood or the way they played or the way they talked about music – even just the pictures they posted. But I kept thinking, ‘This person has no idea what kind of band I'm in.’”
What was the exact moment when you thought, “That’s it! Kiki is the one!”?
Corgan: “The funny thing is, and this was something of a miracle, Kiki’s audition was the first on this one day. Somebody set up the schedule people were traveling in and stuff, and I remember thinking, ‘Oh, that’s probably not very good for Kiki,’ because the chance of us hiring the first person we see is probably pretty slim. By the time you get to the eighth or ninth person, you’re going to have a hard time remembering the first person.”
“Kiki came in and played very well. Now, I know how to read Jimmy Chamberlin’s body language pretty well; we’ve played together for over 35 years. I remember looking at Jimmy, and I could tell he was surprised at how well Kiki played. We had this thing at the auditions where we played three or four songs, and then we’d sit down and talk to each person for 15 minutes.
“A lot of people played well, but once we talked to them I thought, ‘They’re not really going to fit into our world.’ We’re a bit of a weird lot. [Laughs] We’re kind of picky in our own way. Maybe every band is, but I know the way we’re picky. Kiki was just who she was. She wasn’t trying to be someone else. She wasn’t trying to be a flatterer.
“She was just herself. And it was like, ‘OK, this person can hang in our world.’ After that, for the next three hours, nobody who followed Kiki could beat her. She was still on my mind, even though we weren’t discussing it internally.”
How many people followed Kiki till you decided on her?
Corgan: “I think there were nine others.”
There’s a lot of heavy metal and grit. This made me feel comfortable. I did a deep dive beyond the band’s radio hits, and I felt the kind of energy I get from heavy metal
Kiki, what was the process of you fitting in with the band sonically?
Wong: “It’s interesting, because I've always been afraid to play anything with a clean tone; I still am a little bit. One of the things I loved about our first Zoom call was how we spent a lot of time talking about Dimebag Darrell. Billy is such a huge metal fan, and after listening to the Pumpkins’ music, I realized there's so much variety in it.
“There’s a lot of heavy metal and grit. This made me feel comfortable. I did a deep dive beyond the band’s radio hits, and I felt the kind of energy I get from heavy metal. I felt I could meld my own energy sonically. The band has been super open to that, too. There hasn’t been that ‘No, no, you have to do it this way or that way.’ It’s been sort of an invitation to express myself on top of the stuff that already written.”
You bring up the metal aspect. As you know, there’s been some criticism from fans that you’re “too metal” for the Pumpkins.
Wong: “Honestly, that’s been my life story since I was 13, the whole metal thing. It even got to the point where my girlfriends stopped talking to me. It got a little weird, but now it doesn’t phase me. I go on stage looking like a wrestler in my outfits, but that’s what I like to wear. People are like, ‘You look like you should be in Judas Priest.’ And to that, I say, ‘Thank you.’ Billy’s been totally cool about it – ‘Wear whatever you want. Just be comfortable.’
“Sound-wise, I’ve dialed the heavy metal stuff back a bit, but I’m just trying to find that metal voice and integrate it. I actually think it meshes pretty well. There’s a lot of metal influence and style in the music, but it’s in a truly heavy way, not just this, ‘Oh, my God, that’s making my ears sore. Get that out of here!’”
Corgan: “We’re heavier with Kiki, which is actually to the benefit of the band live. But to the other thing she said, at some point Kiki came to me and said, ‘Is there anything you’d like me to do as far as how I'm going to look on stage?’ I said, ‘I want you to be comfortable. That’s more important to me, and I think it’s more important to James and Jimmy. They wear what they want to wear.’
“If you’re looking across the stage at the Pumpkins, James is wearing a suit. I’m wearing a priest’s dress, Jack is wearing the Manchester outfit of a lumberjack shirt and jeans, and Kiki looks like Rob Halford’s cousin. And I go, ‘Yeah, this is the band.’
“I look out and see audience members who are super goth, super metal. We have a ton of LGBTQ+ fans just being themselves. I think that's really the beautiful message the band sends. You don’t have to be anything to be up here. You could just be yourself.”
Billy, you talked about the impact Kiki has had on the band personally, but let’s drill down into the musical aspect. Specifically, are there some songs you play differently as a guitarist because of the way Kiki plays?
Corgan: “No. I think of it more like an author, which is like, ‘OK, we have these ingredients to play with.’ Having Kiki allows us to do things in a different way, so let’s lean into that. It’s less of an influence as more as an opportunity for me.
“When it gets to the metallic side of the band’s catalog, whether it’s Bullet with Butterfly Wings or something we’re going to play live on the solo tour, like Eden, which is off the new record, that’s the best form of that band with Kiki in it.
“She’s still learning what we would call more of the goth/atmospheric stuff. Sometimes I kind of pull her aside and I’ll show her – ‘I think this is the way psychologically you need to approach this.’ Oftentimes I’ll use references that she might understand, whether it’s a Metallica or a Mercyful Fate or something to sort of say, ‘This is maybe how they would do it.’ She may not understand if I start talking about Bauhaus, for example.”
Kiki, we talked about how many songs you had to learn. Billy, James and Jim know this stuff cold –
Corgan: “Hey, wait! I’m downstairs practicing every night. I’m cursing myself right now for the setlist I picked for this thing. [Laughs] There’s some songs on the Machines of God tour that I’ve never played live. I’m not talking about live in front of a crowd; I mean played live ever.”
Hey, well, you better get to it.
Corgan: “I’m working on it!”
But Kiki, it is true that there’s 35 years of material you’ve had to master in a short period of time. Has it ever felt overwhelming?
Wong: “It’s really interesting because I’ve always kind of taught myself. My parents were like, ‘Piano lessons or bust.’ The problem with that is, I didn’t have a lot of the foundations of music that other people have when they go through the nitty-gritty theory and all of that.
The band has been extremely accommodating in being able to speak my language and sensing how I learn things
Kiki Wong
“Billy’s been really understanding, and he knows how to navigate that sort of thing with me. He’ll be like, ‘All right, I’m going to play the chords and then show you how to do it,’ versus ‘I’m going to talk in super-theory jargon,’ which is my weakness. I actually bought four music books I'm going to be reading. This needs to be tackled. It's been almost 20 something years of never going through it, and I should.
“The band has been extremely accommodating in being able to speak my language and sensing how I learn things. It’s really helped. When we did the first tour in Europe, we had five days of rehearsal, and my fear kicked in, like, ‘Fuck!’ It was like the imposter syndrome, where you’re like, ‘I know I can’t do this. If somebody sees that I can’t do this, then it’s not going to work out.’
“My biggest fear was holding me back. Then we just found a way that works in terms of learning, and we were able to get some of the really difficult stuff done in five days. Everything was all good, and I was able to learn things a lot faster.”
Corgan: “There was this time when Kiki was really struggling with how to play a song – I don’t remember which one – and because we believed in her and trusted that she was giving her best, I went over and sort of rejiggered what she was playing. I took on a different responsibility.
If you’re playing a song from Mellon Collie, that’s seven years of James and me playing guitar in a very specific way. I don’t expect somebody to just parachute in and understand that style
Billy Corgan
“Rather than be like, ‘Oh, you’re hired for this gig and you’re failing,’ it was like, ‘OK, I see where you’re weak over here. Let’s figure out a way we can cover you and not expose you,’ all while knowing it was something she needed to work on. That’s the sort of environment that we have. We don’t expect Kiki to understand everything we do.
“It’s pretty arcane in many ways, and it was developed over many, many years. If you’re playing a song from Mellon Collie, that’s seven years of James and me playing guitar in a very specific way. We’re talking many, many concerts and recording sessions.
“I don’t expect somebody to just parachute in and understand that style. Even when Jeff Schroeder was in the band, it took him probably two years to fully assimilate what people would call the ‘Pumpkins’ guitar style.”
Wong: “I think what makes it difficult, but also inspiring, is that it's a style I’m not used to. Obviously, for the past year or so, I’ve gotten a little bit more acquainted with the Pumpkins’ style, which is different in some ways from where I come from. I’ve been a metalhead for years, just strictly high-distortion and no real dynamics in my playing.
“That’s all changed now. What’s truly great about all this is how it’s allowing me to expand my musicianship. I’m really trying to tap into tone and voicings in a way that’s almost orchestrated with the band, as opposed to just playing a part.”
Billy, what can Kiki do on the guitar that’s just beyond you?
Corgan: “Well, she’s got that Hetfield/Kerry King downstroke thing that I could never do, whatever the fuck that is. [Wong busts up laughing]. That Master of Puppets thing – I have to cheat that shit. Trust me, I knew Johnny Ramone and he was a big proponent of this.
“Obviously, Hetfield and Kerry King would tell you the same. So would Mustaine. The only way to play that way is you gotta do all downstrokes. I remember being at Johnny Ramone’s house – [imitates thick New Yorker accent] ‘all downstrokes, all downstrokes.’
“There’s a belief that the attack of the downstroke is better than if you pick up-down, up-down. To me, when I see somebody who can do that with the downstrokes, I’m like, ‘Fuck, I can't do that!’”
Kiki, same question: What does Billy play that’s just beyond you?
Wong: “Oh, my gosh. One of the most jaw-dropping moments on the first tour was just seeing Billy go crazy-shred. We have these times when it’s all improv, and hearing some of the voicings he uses… One of the things you strive for as a musician is developing your own sound, where someone will say, ‘Hey, that’s Kiki Wong!’ or ‘That’s Billy Corgan!’ But more than that, it’s ‘That’s Billy Corgan, and no-one else can be Billy Corgan.’
One of the most jaw-dropping moments on the first tour was just seeing Billy go crazy-shred
Kiki Wong
“When he solos… we have this 10-minute jam on Gossamer, and it’s just insane. Insane! You start to listen to what he’s doing, and he’s speaking and he’s using voices that are from the Smashing Pumpkins. There’s all these hints from other songs, but he’s simultaneously shredding. Then you just look out and people are just like this [she drops her jaw in awe].
“Because if you're a ‘hits’ person, you're not going to find this insanity that comes with the other songs. You just don’t expect the absolute insane shred experience from some of the main hits on the radio.
“But when you go to the show and you hear the hits, and then you hear something like Gossamer with Billy just going in… you hear all of those things, and then the visual experience… you’re blown away. When that happens, I’m like the audience, with my jaw literally wide open. I’m watching the show as I'm playing. It’s incredible.”
- Aghoro Mori Mei is out now via Martha's Music.
- This article first appeared in Guitar World. Subscribe and save.
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